This is a edited version of a interview done by Badette for HIS magazine
published in Taiwan fall of 2001.



Badette: So what is the most eligible bachelor in Taiwan all about? Tell me, tell me! After all we want to find you a man …

Spencer: Well, its not essential basically what it is is that I think that I've always been an artist. I started off painting and then I had second thoughts about being a painter because I thought that I wasn’t good enough and I thought “well, maybe I should become a photographer, so I went to school to become a photographer and then I started to find out that with my photography I started to go into abstractions and so I pushed photography to abstractions so far I said well ‘why don't I just go back to painting again?’ so I started painting again. I think in my life, basically everything that I have been involved in has always revolved around art of some sort. Of course, like all parents, mine weren't very happy when I said “I want to be an artist.” Of course I didn't think they would be very happy when I told them I'm gay. So my parents insisted on the course of “maybe if you don't want an office job, maybe you should pick up a trade of some sort.” As it happened in the high school they were offering a printing course and I thought “well that will be pretty interesting”, and so I started working as a printer. And the first job that I had was at a quick print shop and it was ‘we'll do your resume in a minute’ and that kind of stuff, but when we had free time, I found myself making art because I had all the equipment there and I would start making prints, basically reproducing them and giving them to friends. We also had a Xerox machine so I would start making Xerox art and collage work and printing it up, so the printing was really good for me because it gave me access to materials, papers and machinery that introduced a new way that I could create art. So that I had this period where I was doing a lot of this kind of art and then, when you're dealing with art, you're also dealing with music since the two have a natural affinity for each other. I started hanging out with musicians and so by hanging out with them I ended up designing posters for them, and because I worked for a quick print shop, I could make hundreds of copies and we could put them all over town. Then in art school I started to discover other artists, and the artists that I found myself most drawn to were Andy Warhol, Duane Michaels - who's a photographer, and like the others whose work I respected so much, is gay, from my home town, which happens to be Pittsburgh - and a little farther away, from Reading Pennsylvania, was Keith Haring. They were all in New York, and I'm thinking ‘well, if they're in New York, then maybe that's where I should be too'. I have to say that I got a chance to meet Keith Haring, I did get a chance to talk with Duane Michaels, but I never got a chance to meet Warhol. So, the closest experience of Warhol that I had was I spend a night in his old dorm room in Pittsburgh with an Andy Warhol look-alike, so that was my “Andy experience”. And in New York, of course I went with stars in my eyes, all I could see was a vision of posters proclaiming: “Warhol, Michaels, Haring, SPENCER” but as reality strikes, New York is a tough town and you're not the only one out there trying to get into the art business. It was very difficult and sometimes discouraging, and, well, I didn’t let that stop me, I just figured out ways of getting my work exposed. I'd go to galleries, “Oh, I want to show my work” and this and that; they'll give me the eye, and I'm thinking “I think my work's pretty good, and I want to show it. So what I would do is to find small galleries like student galleries and independent galleries. Quite a few times I saw a store front that was not being used, and it's in decent condition, I'd call the owner up and say “hey look, you're not renting your space, how much do you want a month?”
They say whatever - perhaps “US$2000”.

“OK, I tell you what, I just want to use your space for two weeks, if I repaint it, give you $500, can I use your space for 2 weeks?” Because I know printing and I know graphic design, I design my own flyers and posters, put them up around town, and have a gallery exhibition. So I ended up sponsoring my own shows after a while because I thought that my work was good enough and I wasn't given the opportunity to exhibit in the mainstream galleries, so I had to make it. I always try to live by the old American saying that goes “if life gives you lemons, you gotta make some lemonade”. So that's what I did. I also did a lot of other stuff because, as an artist, you can't always survive on your art. You have good years, you have bad years, I've been rich and I've been poor, so with that kind of living situation, you have to be clever. You have to figure out “well, what can I do?” So I've done flower arrangements, I've done graphic design work, I've been a band manager, band promoter, club manager, printer, I've done so-called faux finishing - sort of wall colorings - almost anything that deals basically with paint. I've even done set design. Anything that's going to pay the bills, but yet, is going give me a challenge, and it's going to make me excited. All the places that I've worked in, I've even worked in ad agencies, they've always had a way of involving themselves back into art. If you look at my style, it's ‘different’. One of the reasons it's different is because I took after the abstract-expressionists. And that's still in my bones to a great deal. After living in Japan for a while, thinking like an American, not realizing at that particular time that my brain is like a sponge - its picking up all this Asian art, all this Asian information I found that it eventually worked its way into my style. I didn't realize it was really happening til I got back to the States, and I started painting again, and it'd changed and I started coming up with interesting new ideas. I've seen traditional Chinese and Japanese paintings, where they use rice paper and they use ink - well, why can't I do that in a Western concept? So then I started using rice paper - I was lucky enough to have a friend that worked for a Japanese art supply company so it made it easy for me to get the materials and understand how they work together although it was very frustrating in the beginning, when I got the results it was like magic, it was a high.

I think that all artists they do what they do because it's what they are. And I guess til the day that I die, I'm still going to do art because that it's a part of me, it's freedom. In the beginning, I didn't think that art done using computers was art - I said “if you don't do it by hand, it isn't really real” and then I found out that's garbage. My ex got me involved with computers, and the next thing you know, I'm starting to develop a style using computers. Hopefully very soon I'll be exhibiting here in Taiwan. I'm looking forward to the Taiwanese response. I showed the work in Hong Kong, and the guy said “well, it's very nice, it's very arty, I'm sure they'll sell very well in Taiwan, but in Hong Kong, unless you've got a lot of (sexual) action going on, I don't think that the gay community here in Hong Kong will be interested in it.”

B: Ooooh a Taiwan exhibition - when do I get my invitation?

S: Well - I think when I'm ready. When I came to Taiwan I basically came nude, I did not bring any work with me, I did bring my computer generated work, because you can put it on CD-ROMs real easy. But I didn't want to bring any paintings here because I wanted to absorb the environment here and create new work here. I'm more than sure that when I have the show here, it's going to be titled “Made in Taiwan” because all the art work that I show, I want to be based on the visual and emotional experiences I've had here in Taiwan.

B: I'm assuming you're out to your family.

S: Yeah

B: Oh you know, so often I hear from those dear Taiwan boyz “oh it’s so easy for foreigners to come out to their families”. Do you think it is easier for foreigners to come out to their families than it is for Taiwanese? Do you think foreign families are more accepting?

S: No, not at all. I think that it depends on the family structure. I know guys in the States: “
Hi, I'm gay”

“Get out”

I've seen that a lot, and that’s why we have New York Covenant House and a few other places such as the Lesbian and Gay Community Center of New York and they have programs for gay runaways because the family throws them out. I, in my case, was very lucky but mine was a little bit complex because I did come out because I couldn’t take the pressure anymore, and I told my parents, and of course their response was “we love you, you’re our son, we'll always love you” and the end results were they knew, but they didn't want to know, so basically there were no questions about grandchildren, when are you going to get married or any of that stuff, but there was this unnatural silence. And then the other fact is that I came out to my parents but at that particular time I hadn't come out to myself. Because everybody thinks that ‘oh you come out’ yeah you do, but the fact is that no matter who you are or whether you're straight or whatever, you're still learning who you are. I came from a reasonably small town so I had no role models. We saw the two extremes and I was like “I don't fit in either extreme, where do I fit in? I’m not a deviant and I'm not a drag queen.” It really wasn't until I moved to New York that I started finding people who were like me, and then I started to realize I just happen to be me, and I happen to be gay - that's it. So I don't have to fit into any group. Of course there are groups that people are in, but I don't have to fit in one if I don't want to, I can just be who I am.

B: OK doll, what do you think of the local gay community here in Taiwan?

S: Ohhhhh, that's tricky! Well, first of all, I have to say that in NYC I have a lot of Taiwanese friends and - they're all gay - and so we would talk about gay issues and basically the gay issues really deal with the Taiwan community as a whole. I think that because it's primarily a Chinese based society it causes problems. The other day I was talking about one of the issues with a friend - which I don't understand. I said to him; “well, maybe I'm just too westernized, and I think that is why I have difficulty understanding that, if your parents say they love you, and they really love you, and you tell them you're gay, why is it that there is such an issue when I think that there really shouldn't be much of a problem. They basically might not be happy with the idea, but they say ‘OK, you're my son, I love you’ and that's the end of that.” But it's not, it becomes a much more complex issue, and, talking to another friend and from what he told me, I think a lot of the problem is that Chinese basically have an idea of what you're going to be and what you're going to do. He said he believes that Chinese families are fundamentally selfish because they don't give you the chance to be an individual. And I kind of agree with that, I might be wrong in my view point, but I do and I think that you should let your children be who they are, and not try to force them into something else. Another friend of mine, his name translates to “knowledgeable scholar” and so his parents insisted he becomes a teacher. But what happens if he doesn't want to be a teacher? That's because of the code of Chinese culture you just go with the flow. They say I have to be a teacher, I'll be a teacher. But I blame the Taiwanese culture on making the gays how they are here. And I say that because they make being gay very unacceptable and that's a reality I don't understand because, if you read books like “Passion of the Cut Sleeve” and the other books, gay people have been in every culture, every nationality from the beginning of time. It's nothing new, so if you come out and say you are gay, what's the big deal? After all there were even gay emperors in China, so hell!, the parent's should be proud that their son is like an emperor! It's like, we're not happy, but we know it, and we know it exists. I talked to a friend after he came out and his parents were very shocked. My first response was “they don't read the newspaper? They don't think that gay people really do exist?” The other point is that, this is a personal observation, and going back to, it's my opinion.

B: So Mz Thang, have you been to the cruising ground in Taipei?

S: Well a friend of mine took me to Taipei park … and I felt very hurt by going there. When I say that, what I'm trying to say is first of all we were walking around and there were these two young boys sitting on the bench. They had their coat over their head and they were kissing. And I thought to myself it's pretty bad when you have to cover your head but then I thought well, it doesn't make much sense really because if anyone wants to know whose really under there, they’re going to walk over there and snatch the coat off, or they'll just sit down on the bench on the other side and wait until they take it off. But that kind of bothered me. But then again, the other day I was getting off the train, and I saw these two young boys holding hands and I was kind of like really blown away by that. I'm like “WOW those guys are pretty bold.” In a way they just say “hey look, we're not going to hide.” And I find that to be applaudable - a lot of people I have met recently are out of the closet, I applaud that because in a sense they are going against the odds, and they're basically saying “I am who I am and accept me like this”.

The other thing I noticed in the park was that the boys are standing around, it was cold that day, and they gave you the impression like American hustlers, or male prostitutes, just standing around waiting to meet somebody. And that kind of bothered me. Then, when I really started thinking about it and I realized “I don't really think these boys are out there for sex. That's not what they are there for. They are here because Chinese culture is not very big on touching or hugging. Because holding or showing any kind of physical affection is not common, these boys are suffering from a lack of affection. These boys are figuring ‘hey, if I have to give up sex to be held, to feel like I'm worth something, to be loved just for a few minutes, I'm going to do that.’” I think that's pretty sad because I think that people, and we're all human beings, thrive on touch, to be held, to be caressed, to be acknowledged that they are human beings, that they are loved and that they are bringing joy here on this planet. And to be denied of that I think is a disservice, and I think that the community has pushed the people to this point of becoming desperate for affection, and that bothers me. It makes my heart hurt, because I felt like I just want to go over to each one of them and just give them a hug and say ‘you know, it’s OK, it's alright, you are loved’ and I think that the gay community here should be aware of this or investigate it or do something to find out ‘what can we do to make these guys’ lives a little better? So they don't have to stand in the park waiting in the cold or rain just to find someone that's going show them some physical contact.’ Why not start a community center? They have coffee shops and stuff like that, but basically Taiwanese are conservative, so why not develop something that'll fit the culture but also fill their needs? I know, I'm starting to sound like an activist.

Badette: Let's talk about that racism because we were talking about it earlier

Spencer: Basically, if you're not a person of color, you'll never understand what it's about, because for a lot of people, especially in the United States, racism doesn't exist, but it does, and a lot of people say ‘Oh, it's your imagination.’ You know, and when you're treated a certain ways or when you go up for a job and a person less qualified gets the job, then you kinda wonder, ‘what's the real deal?’ but in New York, it's there. I think I would have preferred if it was more like the old Southern attitude, because it was right up in your face, OK, I can handle that, but in the North, especially in New York it is very underground, being a person of color in the art business I find it a lot. What happens is that when you go into the galleries is that you won't find a lot of work crafted by artists of color, the only time you really see these works is either the artist happens to be friends with somebody or it happens to be a minority gallery. But the major galleries, will look at your work and tell you ‘Oh yeah, it's really nice’ and everything, and then when they meet you, the tune changes to ‘we don't have time right now, we … we'll work out space for you and another date.’ The gallery that I dealt with was a Japanese gallery, and I didn't have any difficulties, and it just seemed it was a lot easier, but in fact that particular Japanese gallery wasn't a “mainstream” gallery and that meant my sales were slower than they might otherwise have been.

Badette: Dahling, some of my boys here have told me that they are uncomfortable around Black people - what has been your experience here?

Spencer: Well, in Taiwan, I don't really feel that kind of racism here, but what I've noticed has basically been ignorance and misrepresentation. For example, I went to a friend's brother's restaurant, they brought out all this food, I ate what I wanted and everything, and they're looking at me and said ‘you're a big American, you should eat a lot more than that!’

‘Why?’

‘Well, it's in the movies!’

Well, I feel that a lot of the information that Taiwanese have of people of color from the United States is far as Black, Latino, other than Caucasian they get from the movies and so they're not really getting the true picture of what being another person of color is about. I think in a lot of ways even the television shows that are being imported, like Jerry Springer and stuff like that, I think it's really a disservice to the Americans. Because they're sending these shows all over the world, and everybody seems to believe the media hype, and they think that all Americans are really screwed up people. But since I've been in Taiwan, I have to say that I really haven't run into any blatant racism, except for the time that I got pulled over because they thought I was a run-away Filipino migrant worker. That particular incident was, I thought, interesting.

B: Oh dahling - tell me the GOSSIP!

Spencer: I was living in Taitung, there's a guy down there, he's Latino, he's married to a Taiwanese and he was showing me around town and we were sight-seeing, and all of a sudden these cops pulled us over, and they want to see my ID or passport. I didn't have my passport because I didn't think it would be necessary since we were just going for breakfast or something. I have to admit the cop was VERY cute - he pulled us over, and he's talking to my friend, who can speak Mandarin, so they're talking and then my friend says ‘show him your business card, show him your business card!’ I'm like ‘well, I didn't bring any with me I didn't think it would be useful here!’ And then, since my wallet was open the cop happemed to see my VISA credit card, and he said ‘let me see that’. I showed it to him, he wrote down the number and exclaimed ‘oh you're American’. The thing that surprised me was the realization that what he was in effect rying to say is that ‘Filipino migrant workers can't have VISA charge cards?’ Once the cop was convinced that I was not illegal, he let us go.

B: OK dearie, so how do you think that racism has affected your art?

S: I think what is has done is change the concept of how I paint and create art. I did a series of computer-generated works that I titled “Angels of Color”. I was inspired to do this because I just felt that, whenever you see angels, you never see Latino ones, Asian ones or Black ones.

B: They're always white?

S: Yes, so I decided that I was going to do a series and when I'm finished, I hope to exhibit them,I have completed about 40 pieces of “Angels of Color”.

B: Just how shocked was Joe Public when he first saw that?

S: The people who saw it liked it. They thought that it was an interesting concept, and even the idea of having Asian angels, I thought was REALLY interesting. Asians in general have that quiet beauty to them. So, giving them wings and putting them in grand surroundings was a real high for me.

B: You said earlier that in your 30s you became especially aware of racism. Do think there was a time when you found your work was … maybe … a little angry?

S: No. Not at all, because when I do my art it’s from my heart and I use it to bring joy to myself and others around me. It's not what's going on around me but my feelings, how I feel, that is my inspiration. I don't think there was ever a time when my art was angry, because the main reason I do it is to bring joy. If I do it for myself, it's for other people too. I try not to let any outside influences interfere with my art.

B: What do you think about the artists who allow anger to suffuse their artwork?

S: Well, art is an opinion. It's one person's view-point. I learned a long time ago, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink. So really I have nothing to say about anybody else's art because that is their opinion - I think as human beings we are entitled to be who we are, and do what we want. But you just have to be aware of the consequences, if you're willing to do something, whatever the consequences are that follow, if you're willing to deal with them, more power to you - you can do whatever you like.

B: Oh dear, I have to make a confession - you see, Badette comes from South Africa. To think back, a lot of the South African artists of color have been very angry.

S: Well, first of all, we have to look at the situation. Maybe if I was there I would be angry too, but you have to look at what happened. Foreign people come to your country, tell you you're shit and basically tell you “we think it will be better if you move over here? And we'll just take over this area.” I mean, how would you feel? You know the whole mess, I'm not trying to be racist or anything like that, I'm just expressing my opinion. If we look at world history it's been the same everywhere. You have to understand, my grandfather was Native American and so that makes me aware of a lot of things, and this awareness of the injustices his people faced makes me angry at any injustice. The Europeans come on over to what they call “The Americas”, I don't know what the real name is, but that's the name they gave it, and basically the people that were living there helped them survive the harsh environment they were not accustomed to, and in return, what did they do? Stole their land from them, pushed them onto reservations, if they didn't move fast enough, kill'em and we're talking a kind of genocide.

When you look at world history, the only genocide anybody ever talks about is the Holocaust. However, because I'm part black, I have to ask ‘what about all the slaves that came over and died on the way over?’ That was a holocaust too; we don't talk about that much either do we? So it always seems like as long as injustice is “people of color or gay related” it's always suppressed. And we never really discuss these issues or talk about them, if you're going to have the Jews saying “Holocaust - never again” well, why don't we say “never again” to all of it? Why does it have to be one group? I look at everything from humanitarian point-of-view and as humans we have to put a stop to a lot of this. It can't just be one group or whatever, let's just say as a whole we need to respect each other and accept each other's differences.

Even if you look at Chinese history, the Europeans came over. They claimed to have “found”, or “discovered” China. That still astounds me there's a continent here, people are living here, they have a society, a culture, everything’s working really cool and the Europeans just walked in and said “oh, we've discovered it, it's ours.” Does that mean I can walk down the street and if I see that car over there that I really like, I can take it because I “discovered” it? Another thing that really gets my blood boiling is the fact that people think they have the right to tell people that their culture isn't worth anything. If you arrive at a new continent and encounter a culture you haven't come across before, say “hey, how you guys doing?” then try to become a part of the culture, understand what these new neighbors are all about. You can't walk in and say “well, you're religion is crap because I think mine is better, your education system is crap because I think mine is better.” How can you say that? You really don't know. Then when you look at history, the Chinese had moveable print 500 years before the Europeans did, so, if you have a culture that is printing books and letters and manuscripts and everything 500 years prior to you, how can they be so desperately behind? You have to be a little more tolerant. I think that's the problem in the world is nobody tolerates differences easily. Then I find that the people who have been discriminated against such as Blacks, Latinos, Jews, gays, they turn around and discriminate against other people, even people of their own community, and I'm thinking “if you've been discriminated against, and you know what its like to be treated like that why would you do it somebody else?”

This confuses my mind a lot because my parents brought me up with this way of thinking ‘do unto others you have them do unto you’. So I don't want to do anything to anybody that I don't want them to do to me. With my friends and relatives I do the same thing: you treat me with respect, I’ll treat you with respect, but basically, if you treat me with disrespect, I just leave because I feel that it's not necessary in my life.

B: Dahling, what do you think of those preachers who stand up and say that gays’ struggle for rights is not the same as African Americans’ struggle for equal rights?

S: Basically how I feel is that why do the people who have been discriminated against and fought for recognition forget their past, forget their pain and turn around and discriminate against other people?